Dmm pivot vs petzl reverso. 3 WC VC Pro 2: 6. )Īnd, if they REALLY can’t give you any slack, there is another way to do it with a redirected sling, check the video link below. W naszej ofercie klasyczne kubki asekuracyjnej nowe automatyczne przyrządy jak Grigri oraz zyskujące popularność półautomaty (Mammut Smart, Black Diamond Pilot) Posiadamy nowoczesne kubki: Petzl Reverso, Black Diamond ATC Guide czy Pivot od DMM. Letting go then re-locks the device. It is a fundamental part of a climbers rack. The DMM Pivot is the only device on the market with a clip-loop for assisted braking, which adds less than one ounce of weight than the Petzl Reverso, the nearest competitor of Pivot in shape and design. Features include: Sep 6, 2019 · I have used the ropes with the following devices over the past year, and haven't found any compatibility issues with any of them: DMM Pivot, Petzl Reverso 4, Kong Gigi (good if you do a lot of direct belaying on fat ropes), DMM Mantis, Edelrid Gigajul, DMM Bug, BD ATC, Petzl Grigri2, Italian Hitch and waist belay. May 24, 2025 · Petzl Reverso 3: 7. The Verso and other tube-style devices are ideal for Nov 11, 2023 · Petzl GriGri 2, Edelrid Mega Jul Sport, and DMM Pivot are probably your best bets out of the 22 options considered. Reply reply getdownheavy • Oct 7, 2019 · This process is significantly trickier with the Petzl Reverso or Black Diamond ATC Guide. Hey! I am currently looking for a guide mode belay device, preferably a DMM Pivot, Petzl Reverso, or a BD ATC Guide! Gone are the days of simple 'stitch plates' I have narrowed my choice down to one specific type, but there are still many to choose from, eg:- BD ATC, Dmm Pivot, Petzl Reverso 4, Edelrid Kilo Jul and the list goes on Which (if any) in your opinion is the best/user friendly. . Newer options that are gaining solid following’s are the DMM Pivot which makes direct lowered off the anchor while in “guide mode” easier and the Black Diamond ATC Alpine Guide that is optimized for working with skinny twin ropes. Capacidad de frenado Dmm indica que el rango de trabajo para su asegurador-descendedor Pivot para cuerda simple es de 8. Easy to use, inexpensive, super easy to lower in guide mode and the slight 90 degree change in the guide bracket make a world of difference at your belay stations Aug 23, 2021 · Super helpful to see the visual of the space difference in the alpine atc vs. A development of already excellent devices like the Petzl Reverso and Black Diamond ATC-Guide, the DMM Pivot is designed for easier handling in 'guide' mode, allowing much greater control when lowering a second. But so does the DMM Pivot or the Petzl Reverso ;) Jan 14, 2019 · Auto locking plaquette-style belay devices (such as the DMM Pivot, Black Diamond ATC Guide and Petzl Reverso) have become pretty much standard gear. Ver vídeo. Esto DMM and Edelrid both make awesome produtcs, engineered by experienced climbers. I would so setup like this, attaching to my harness if I had to use it as a progress capture to climb a rope. A face-on comparison view of three belay devices: Petzl Reverso (left), DMM Pivot (center) and BD’s ATC (right). It is an affordable option that is apt for both beginner and advanced climbers and allows for quick and easy transitions into guide mode, allowing the user to switch between belaying and lowering in a flash. In lead/rappel mode it feeds both single and double ropes just like a tube device. Jul 29, 2015 · The device is most similar to the Petzl Reverso in that it gives the opportunity to be used in guide mode as an auto-block. After my Reverso wore out and my ATC guide was lent out and never came home, I snagged a Pivot and have never looked back. Prusik on brake strand to belay loop, test it. It isn't the lightest comparable device and doesn't accommodate modern 8. May 23, 2025 · Le Pivot, de la marque galloise DMM, est un appareil d’assurage de type panier, sans freinage assisté et similaire au Petzl Reverso ou au Black Diamond ATC Guide. 3mm. El DMM Pivot es el único que presenta una innovación gracias a su «modo guía» basculable. Questions and Answers About ATC belaying devices How do I pick the best ATC? PETZL / REVERSOペツル / ルベルソ 【3カラー】 対応ロープ径が広がったペツルのガイドモード付最新ビレイデバイスです。細径ロープ使用時のブレーキパワーを確保するため… Aug 8, 2024 · Spezielle Alpin-Tuber wie zum Beispiel das ATC Guide, das Petzl Reverso oder das DMM Pivot bieten gerade in Dreier-Seilschaften besondere Funktionen, um die Kletterei am Fels zu unterstützen. 1 CT Alpine Up (dynamic mode): 5. Protege la cuerda, facilita las maniobras de la cuerda y el rapel, con una utilización intuitival. May 29, 2017 · DMM Pivot - long term review When Petzl first came out with the Reverso, I was quick to buy one. Dec 27, 2017 · Back on topic: I've tried the Pivot with a few different carabiners, and the DMM recommended Rhino carabiner really does work better than other options. ly/40YplOJ Black Diamond Guide: https://bit. 0 Weight and Bulk - 10 9. The megajul has some differences that although simple, take a minute to wrap your head around. PIVOT DMM Climbing con funcionalidad de Asegurador y descensor para todos los usos de cuerda: Simples, Dobles y Gemelas. 7-11mm y para doble cuerda entre 7. But they do have one major drawback - if you need to lower your second, it's generally not safe, easy, nor intuitive to do so. The ability to quickly belay a second in guide mode with an "assisted" lock is a game changer for multipitch. Pourvu de deux gorges de freinage, d’un est utilisable dans la totalité des disciplines alpines : voies d’une longueur, grande-voie, alpinisme, etc. Historically, I have enjoyed the use of my Petzl Reverso in guide mode belaying directly off the anchor's master. 9 ounces) plays the dual roles of a belay/rappel plate and an auto-locking device. This vastly reduces the force needed to initiate and control lowering of one or two seconds, making guide mode more user friendly. 2mm. ly/3SuXqSG Petzl Reverso: https://bit. Products Climbing Belay Devices TubularSort By: Featured Like many standard belay devices, the DMM Pivot is made from tough and lightweight aluminum, with two friction options to help you fine tune your lowering. 0 RELATED: Best Climbing Belay Device of 2023 Our Verdict The DMM Pivot is a tube-style belay device with auto-blocking capabilities. Aug 7, 2015 · However, I have found a krab of the correct size works fine with a reverso (not used a dmm pivot - happy to try one if DMM send me one). How do? In the past, when lowering my second some significant amount, I've used a biner tip into the little nub on a reverso and cranked it open to feed rope and lower her down. Features include: Nov 14, 2014 · Only been using it for 3 months and it seems closer to the Petzl Reverso than the BD. 0 Lowering and Rappelling - 30 9. 5 to 11 mm, half 7. It buys the first climber time to sort out the belay, stack the rope nicely, sip some water and often have a better view of the follower in the process. They have reasonable ledges to stand on, not a full hanging belay. Aug 7, 2015 · DMM's new belay device has just won an Industry Award at the OutDoor Friedrichshafen mega-show, but what does a weekend punter make of it on the crags of the Peak District and Pembroke? Feb 21, 2020 · Reverso 4 vs. 3-9. Übersicht Sicherungsgeräte: ATC I “Black Diamond” 102 Gramm ATCII “Black Diamond” 89 Gramm Pivot “DMM” 70 Gramm Reverso I “Petzl” 83g Reverso III “Petzl” 72g Wall Alpine Belay “Mammut” 65g (meine Empfehlung) 24,95€ Globus II “Lucky – Vaude” 99g gängige Sicherungsgeräte (alt & neu) Versatile, functional and innovative, the new DMM Pivot is a modern belay device that caters for modern belaying techniques with modern ropes. W ofercie najnowsze przyrządy wspinaczkowe dla poczatkujących i doświadczonych użytkowników. 95 Pivot sits squarely between the same-priced Black Diamond ATC Guide (88 g) and Petzl Reverso 4 (59 g). Sep 12, 2023 · Petzl Reverso Hacks Maybe skinny rope rappels are an infrequent activity, or you just don’t want to own another piece of equipment for this specific task (I can’t relate). Given that the DMM Pivot costs about the same and offers better functionality, to me it’s a great choice if you’re looking to upgrade your belay device. Aug 26, 2024 · Have Improvised Rescue Skills – This point is well illustrated by the amount of climbers who use plaquette style devices (Black Diamond Guide ATC, Petzl Reverso, DMM Pivot) but have yet to practice lowering from a loaded device. May 29, 2017 · Have Petzl fixed the wear issue with the Reverso 4? If you are using one have you seen the sharpening/burring issues experienced by the earlier models? Anyone using the DMM Pivot or Black Diamond ATC Guide seen similar wear issues? Based purely on the wear issues which would you choose? Reverso 4, DMM Pivot or BD ATC? Having used a Petzl Reverso 3 due to the wear on the device after very minor May 29, 2017 · Have Petzl fixed the wear issue with the Reverso 4? If you are using one have you seen the sharpening/burring issues experienced by the earlier models? Anyone using the DMM Pivot or Black Diamond ATC Guide seen similar wear issues? Based purely on the wear issues which would you choose? Reverso 4, DMM Pivot or BD ATC? Having used a Petzl Reverso 3 due to the wear on the device after very minor ATC guide is more durable. 5 I don't have a full test rig so probably not super scientific, but interesting so thought I'd share as not a lot of belay device performance info out there! Similar work/further Oct 15, 2018 · Other good options might be the Black Diamond Guide ATC, the Petzl Reverso or the DMM Pivot as you say - these can all be used as normal belay plates and guide plates, it gives versatility and options. Climb safe Sep 16, 2024 · 13 4 ebdon 16 Sep 2024 In reply to Mountain Spirit: I've used a pivot and a reverso quite a lot and personally think the pivot is the better of the two. Sling through release hole on plaquette, girth hitch, run to another redirect on anchor Apr 14, 2020 · Each climber has a plaquette style belay device (such as a DMM Pivot, Petzl Reverso or ATC Guide), and each climber has two designated locking carabiners to use with this device. Add five bucks for the Edelrid Mega Jul (65 g). Unlike other devices, the Pivot sports a pivoting hinge that provides some extra leverage and smooth action when you need to lower your second off the belay ledge, making for easy, consistent, and reliable lowering whether you're taking a My DMM Pivot works great in guide mode in conjunction with my somewhat skinnier trad ropes. I still use the Reverso because I have a bunch of carabiners already and didn't want to go buy a new device to save 1 carabiner that setting. This page is powered by a knowledgeable community that helps you make an informed decision. Es adecuado para la mayoría de diámetros de cuerda: cuerda simple de 8,7 a 11 mm, cuerda doble o/y gemela de 7,3 a 9,2 mm. 5mm single ropes. It does a capable job catching falls, feeding slack, and rappelling. Which version of the reverso have you used? all but the first version have the hanger hole for guide mode belaying in the same orientation as the pivot so if it works fine with the reverso then I can't see any reason why it wouldn't with the pivot. A combination of two advanced designs for safer and more efficient belaying, the DMM Pivot and the DMM Rhino Screwgate carabiner, work in perfect in harmony with one another. Why then are there devices like the DMM pivot and the petzl reverso with the guide loop in the other direction? It seems like those would get twisted weird, no? What are the benefits to each orientation, and am I Shop a wide selection of Climbing Belay & Rappel Devices at DICK’S Sporting Goods and order online for the finest quality products from the top brands you trust. 2 becauseitsthere UKC Supporter16 Apr 2018 In reply to marky: A match made in heaven. Sep 30, 2016 · The DMM Pivot is the only device on the market with a pivoting clip-loop for assisted braking, which adds less than an ounce of weight compared to the Petzl Reverso, the Pivot’s closest competitor in shape and design. Exceptions: DMM Edge Chalk Bucket Edelrid Nineteen G for racking Cams. No existen grandes diferencias de frenado en comparación con el Reverso de Petzl, uno de sus competidores, aunque si que hemos notado que el frenado del Pivot de DMM es ligeramente mayor que en el ATC Guide de Black Diamond. The updated Reverso is a few grams lighter (57 g vs the Reverso 4's 63 g) and has some cosmetic changes, such as a flat top and rounded edges, which Petzl says is part of a design to increase durability and longevity of the device Aug 10, 2017 · My point is that regardless of the brand there’s generally little to differentiate one device from another. Feb 24, 2023 · Subscribed 379 32K views 2 years ago Black Diamond Alpine Guide: https://bit. Dmm pivot. Are there any other devices out there that win hands down? Known for being versatile and lightweight, REVERSO is a belay device for single or multi-pitch climbing and mountaineering. Neither the Pivot's nor the Reverso's instructions show tow carabiners as being possible. The auto locking feature when belaying your second directly off the anchor has another nifty capability: rope ascender. 7 Cassin Piu 2: 6. Essential kit for multi-pitch climbers, mountaineers and climbing instructors. Where the magic happens is in the guide mode loop. May 12, 2016 · Rich zz wrote: why does the dmm pivot exist? it makes lowering easier by pivoting, but doesn't the atc guide and reverso also pivot around the carabiner? The pivot is easier to release and control when weighted, at least in my experience. It is compatible with most rope diameters: single 8. I use a reverso or a dmm pivot, they work great, but they don’t have assisted braking belaying. Lowering is easier also the orientation of the belay loop for guide mode is 90° compared to the BD ATC wich orientates the rope either up or down on a anchor. The specific design allows the rope to glide smoothly through the device and reduces wear. If you like a Petzl Reverso, just take a petzl reverso? Plenty of other brands that offer similair models (black diamond ATC guide being on of the larger competitor) Dla użytkowników pragnących się wspinać w górach dedykowane są przyrządy asekuracyjne pozwalające na asekurację z górnego stanowiska takie jak DMM Pivot, Petzl Reverso lub Black Diamond ATC Guide. The Pivot provides smooth paying out, a secure and confident catch, and controlled lowering. There is loads of choice these days and much of it is relatively similar, but also quite good at its intended job. Je voulais juste savoir si ce genre de matériel doit quand même être changé par sécurité ? J’ai cru lire que Petzl signifie que pour le matos métallique, il n’y a pas de durée de vie, vous confirmez ? Merci! Mon modèle (mais c’est pas lui) DMM Pivot Desde la aparición del Reverso de Petzl las innovaciones en los asegurad Asekuracja to sprawa pierwszorzędna. 73 OVERALL SCORE RANKED 7 of 17 Catch and Bite - 30 5. I use the Petzl. These devices require substantial strength on the brake hand when catching a fall and continued lock-off when top rope belaying or belaying your second. The Edelrid jul does, but they can be really jerky and difficult to use. Aug 6, 2021 · Other brands’ versions of this device (Petzl Reverso, DMM Pivot, etc. ) are usually also fine. Safety note: Depending on a few factors, this technique can significantly reduce the friction from your belay device. Bogdan Cardoş asked Petzl how strong the metal eye was on the atc guide since it is a single point of failure. ¡Descubre cómo elegirlas bien! May 22, 2023 · J’ai un Reverso de première génération. The Pivot sliding loop allows you to adjust the angle to increase the ease of releasing the brake and lower a second climber from an anchor above. A Petzl Reverso or DMM Pivot will allow you to use guide mode which can be quite useful sometimes. El Pivot de DMM presenta en su zona de frenado dos acanaladuras completas y una media similares a las del Reverso. The Verso is tied for the most affordable device you can buy, and is a solid recommendation for people new to climbing. (Or use a DMM Pivot belay device, which greatly simplifies the lowering process. Petzl recently released the GriGri +, so the big new question is: do you need one? For most circumstances, the answer is probably no. There is also the alpine up by climbing technology, which is essentially two click ups stuck together, and designed for half ropes. Mar 15, 2024 · La mayoría de dispositivos de freno del mercado son parecidos al Reverso o al ATC, sólo con ligeras variaciones. So können diese für die Nachstiegssicherung am Standplatz in der sogenannten Plattenfunktion aufgebaut werden. The Pivot belay device delivers confident belaying and effective stopping power whether used in guide mode, or belaying from the waist. It has 2 tubes, with differing levels of friction on either side. Oct 15, 2018 · Other good options might be the Black Diamond Guide ATC, the Petzl Reverso or the DMM Pivot as you say - these can all be used as normal belay plates and guide plates, it gives versatility and options. Reverso is lighter and can handle slightly thinner ropes. I especially like the Rhino for guide mode belay. Aug 14, 2018 · Find rock climbing routes, photos, and guides for every state, along with experiences and advice from fellow climbers. ) can be “hacked” to provide suitable friction with many skinny ropes in a two strand rappel. El diseño específico del paso de la cuerda A development of already excellent devices like the Petzl Reverso and Black Diamond ATC-Guide, the DMM Pivot is designed for easier handling in 'guide' mode, allowing much greater control when lowering a second. (You can read our full review of the GriGri + here. Perfektní pro alpské, zimní nebo i klasické lezení. The second is belayed directly from the master point of the anchor. Jul 29, 2019 · The time tested choices here are the Black Diamond ATC Guide and the Petzl Reverso 4. Rappel Devices for 6mm Rope? What is/would be your preffered way to rappel on a 6mm rope like the petzl rad line? Are there any devices like the petzl reverso or black diamond atc that work on a 6mm rope? thanks in advance for help:) Nov 11, 2023 · Compare Petzl GriGri 2 vs Edelrid Mega Jul Sport and 20 other options side by side to learn "What are the best belay devices for rock climbing?" Jul 11, 2021 · The DMM pivot also has a large attachment point. May 5, 2025 · The standard tube-style devices, like the Black Diamond ATC models, the DMM Pivot, and the Petzl Verso and Reverso, scored the lowest compared to the rest of the field. Oct 12, 2022 · OP, if you decide to revisit the aluminum belay devices, do yourself a HUGE favor and look into the DMM Pivot. Conclusiones Mar 2, 2015 · At 72 grams, the $29. In terms of features they are much of a muchness, although you may find that one is more granny than the others. Anyone using the DMM Pivot or Black Diamond ATC Guide seen similar wear issues? Based purely on the wear issues which would you choose? Reverso 4, DMM Pivot or BD ATC? Having used a Petzl Reverso 3 due to the wear on the device after very minor use I am looking Jan 28, 2019 · By Jonathan Doyle - Tips, advice and comparisons on using guide mode belaying devices for rock climbing and mountaineering. El diseño de las zonas de frenado del Pivot de DMM es muy similar al del resto de aseguradores-descendedores del mercado, sin embargo si que existen algunas diferencias con sus dos mayores competidores. ) Versatile, functional and innovative, the new DMM Pivot is a modern belay device that caters for modern belaying techniques with modern ropes. Pay pay out slack, and redirect brake strand to carabiner above plaquette (I secure mine to the shelf). 5 BD ATC Guide: 6. Pretty much the best ATC style belay device there is. 0 Auto Block - 10 4. Sep 16, 2021 · The DMM Pivot is an autoblocking tube belay device that separates itself from the pack with a pivoting anchor loop that is useful when releasing the auto block, which is performed rarely. Both do a great job. The head turner is the Picture this: use a cordalette for your anchor, tie a figure-8 on a bight to make your anchor point. Jun 26, 2003 · The Reverso ($21, 2. 0 DMM Bug: 4. That said, i generally like the hard goods from DMM and the soft goods from Edelrid. A side-by-side comparison view of three belay devices: BD’s ATC (left), DMM Pivot (center) and Grande Wall Gimli (right). This is how I have learned to lower someone in guide mode (I use a petzl reverso): Catastrophe knot on brake strand about a meter away from plaquette. Meticulously researched and developed to provide optimum performance both belaying from the harness, and direct from the anchor. ly/3XykBw8more Oct 15, 2018 · Find rock climbing routes, photos, and guides for every state, along with experiences and advice from fellow climbers. (Some people complain the Pivot heavy, but it’s really not. 0 Feeding Slack - 20 9. 2 becauseitsthere 16 Apr 2018 In reply to marky: > I have used the BD ATC Guide and the petzl reverso in the past. El ATC Guide de Black Diamond tiene tres acanaladuras laterales de frenado, de mayor profundidad y anchura y Reverso de Petzl tiene dos, de menor profundidad y anchura. They replied with "There is no standard requi El ATC Guide de Black Diamond tiene tres acanaladuras laterales de frenado, de mayor profundidad y anchura y Reverso de Petzl tiene dos, de menor profundidad y anchura. For a no nonsense belay device go with the BD guide for longevity, or you could wait for the DMM Pivot which I'M sure will be good coming from DMM. Jamais tombé ni trop usé. atc; appreciate that Tim! I'm very used to using atcs in guide mode so keeping the setup consistent seems favourable (without alternate orientation of reverso or dmm pivot). I just picked up a DMM Pivot to use in guide mode (apparently smoother when pulling up rope and vastly easier to lower a weighted follow) and also plan to use it for rappelling and as a backup if needed. Edelrid Mega-Jul looks promising to replace my ATC-Guide if that ever wears throug. Esta función facilita descolgar el segundo en caso de necesidad, simplificando algunas maniobras de auto-rescate. In definitiva: Petzl Reverso, ATC Guide, Be-Up, DMM Pivot dispositivi in modalità autobloccante con sicura dall’alto? Sì, ma non senza mani. Have Petzl fixed the wear issue with the Reverso 4? If you are using one have you seen the sharpening/burring issues experienced by the earlier models? Anyone using the DMM Pivot or Black Diamond ATC Guide seen similar wear issues? Based purely on the wear issues which would you choose? Reverso 4, DMM Pivot or BD ATC? Having used a Petzl Reverso 3 due to the wear on the device after very minor Sep 1, 2018 · Asegurador-Descensor es un dispositivo que con 2 propósitos principales: 1) Rapelar y 2) Asegurar en escalada con seguridad. Nov 3, 2020 · DMM Pivot Belay Device Check Price and Reviews On Amazon Very similar in many regards to the ATC Guide and the Petzl Reverso. El Pivot de DMM However, our top pick is the Petzl Reverso. 4 BD ATC Guide (highly worn): 5. Feb 21, 2020 · The Petzl Verso is one of the lightest and smallest of all and features the same smooth rope handling as its more popular cousin, the Petzl Reverso. Pivot enables guide mode and gives easily controlled lowering of two seconds The pivoting shackle moves the point of leverage when initiating lowering of your second. Is an ATC better than a Grigri? We break down the differences between the types of belay devices and share our favorites for different types of climbing. Our favorites include the lightweight Petzl Reverso and innovative DMM Pivot for its improved lowering abilities in guide mode. Przyrządy asekuracyjne to niezbędny element sprzętu wspinaczkowego, który pozwoli na zachowanie bezpieczeństwa zarówno w przypadku wspinaczki w skałach, jak i zdobywania górskich szczytów. "Active assisted braking" is the primary reason people pick Petzl GriGri 2 over the competition. DMM Pivot Inovativní, funkční a univerzální jistítko pro použití s moderními lany. Dec 9, 2021 · When using a plaquette style belay device (Black Diamond ATC Guide, Petzl Reverso, DMM Pivot) in Assisted-Braking Mode or Auto-Blocking Mode (to belay a follower directly off the anchor) there are some ways to reduce the amount of effort required to pull slack through the device. more Jan 16, 2019 · Plaquette style belay devices like the Black Diamond ATC Guide and Petzl Reverso are great, allowing smooth rappels, to be rigged as an ascender, and to autolock when belaying your second. Everyone knows how to use the ATC guide/reverso (or Pivot for that matter). Jul 11, 2024 · An auto-blocking tube device is one of the best tools for belaying a follower up a multi-pitch climb, and we recommend it to any beginner interested in expanding their skill set to longer routes. I would go for the pivot if you're going to get one - it's my personal preference. It also takes rope diameters down to 7. The BD can clip directly to your harness, the Petzl will need 2 carabiners to get into the right orientation. 5 I don't have a full test rig so probably not super scientific, but interesting so thought I'd share as not a lot of belay device performance info out there! Similar work/further May 3, 2024 · School me! I learned on the guide ATC, and am always delighted by the orientation- allows me ease of use in guide mode, easy ascension/rappel transition, and generally is great. 5 DMM Pivot: 7. The picture below is a reconstruction of the setup. A good old fashioned Reverso (or BD ATC, DMM Pivot, etc. It can pivot (how’d they name this?) so if you wish to lower your second (s), you can do so smoothly. DMM basically looked at the Petzl Reverso (which they coincidentally are forging for Petzl) and tried improving on the concept. Reverso Since our test period, Petzl has released an updated model of this device, simply called the Reverso (the model we tested was the Reverso 4). 1 to 9 Apr 17, 2018 · A Petzl Reverso or DMM Pivot will allow you to use guide mode which can be quite useful sometimes. The attachment hole (The grey pivot bar) is aligned in the same orientation. It allows you to belay your climbing partner, rappel, and use Reverso mode to belay one or two seconds. Jan 14, 2025 · In reply to alan moore: I'd suggest looking at something like the DMM Mantis, Petzl Verso or a BD ATC XP most likely if you don't need guide mode. zcnz ndiw sfgn mnns kpe fmjzty mjbtvus pit hbsp mjfdo